Episode 204 of the Dad’s Guide to Twins Podcast Show Notes

This blog was provided by the Dad’s Guide to Twins podcast and first appeared here.

Today we continue our father of twins interview series with Matt Barnes, father of two sets of twins. Listen as we explore his twin parenting journey, including:

  • Having two sets of twins in less than two years
  • Going full term with twins
  • Almost losing mom in the operating room post-delivery
  • Managing diapers for 4 kids
  • The reality of twins versus their expectations
  • Deciding to have more children after twins
  • Finding a surrogate for their 2nd set of twins
  • Preparing the home for two more children
  • Can you even prepare super young kids for new siblings?
  • Finding help for child care

Connect with Matt:

“Documentary Dad” Matt Barnes with 2 of his 4 children


Joe: Hi there, and welcome to the 204th episode of The Dad’s Guide To Twins Podcast. This is Joe Rawlinson. Today, we are continuing our father of twins interview series with fellow father of twins, Matt Barnes, who has two sets of twins and shares his amazing story of how they ended up having two sets of twins within two years.

Today’s show is brought to you by my second book for fathers of twins. It’s called Dad’s Guide To Raising Twins: How To Thrive As A Father For Twins. You can learn more about that book and pick up a copy for yourself at RaisingTwinsBook.com. Let’s jump right into the interview with Matt.

Today, I’d like to welcome to the show fellow father of twins times two, Matt Barnes. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matt: Thanks. Thanks a lot for having me.

Joe: Matt, I mentioned you’ve got two sets of twins. How old are they now?

Matt: So, the older set, McCoy and Violet, they just turned two last month, and the younger set, Poppy and Wels, are seven months.

Joe: So, everyone’s still in diapers, I suppose?

Matt: Everyone’s still in diapers. We have more diapers than we know what to do with. It’s a crazy household right now.

(NOTE: Still expecting?  Get weekly updates on your twin pregnancy here.)

Joe: Do you have a system for managing diapers of that volume?

Matt: The older set are in a room together, and then the younger set are kind of in the nursery room together. We’ve got those carts from Ikea, you know, the little, metal ones that you can build. So, we kind of made those diaper changing carts, and that helps a lot to keep them organized there. We just kind of figured out as we go along, and that, especially in the nursery, has been been the easiest thing for us.

Joe: So, let’s rewind the clock a little bit to what was your family situation like when you found out you were having your first set of twins?

Matt: My wife and I had been married for, Oh gosh, just under a year, but we’d been together for a very long time. So, we got married, and we were a little older when we got started. I think we were 38 when we got married. So, we kind of wanted to jump on let’s get a family started. My feeling was pretty much from the start, I said, “Let’s go to a fertility specialist and get checked out, because we’re older. There’s probably going to be some kind of problem there that we may need to identify or whatever.” Sure enough, it wasn’t going to be impossible, but it was definitely going to be a challenge for us, and so we ended up doing IVF, went through the whole process. We implanted two embryos that then didn’t take, and then the next two were our first set of twins.

Joe: So, it was a surprise, but not … You kind of knew that was a possibility, going through IVF.

Matt: Yeah. We liked the idea of it. We kind of were open to either way. You know, if one took, great. If both take, great. And we knew we had done the genetic testing, so we knew it was a boy and a girl. You know, if both of them take care, hey, we get one of each, so we thought that sounded pretty cool. If one of them takes, then we’ll kind of see which one we get.

Joe: So, what were some of the challenges during that first pregnancy with the twins?

Matt: The one thing people don’t prepare you for in general with pregnancy, I would assume, I don’t think it’s any different with twins, is the first time you’re just … especially when you wait until older in life, like we did, the idea of feeling like a parent, you know, feeling like this is going to happen, that you’re going to be ready for it, it takes a little while, but I think the process of all of it, and getting things together, and watching as my wife got bigger, and all of those things together sort of mentally prepares you. Honestly, I think like design-wise, like nine months seems … nine to 10 months is almost that perfect kind of a time to get you ready. Honestly, it was a fairly easy pregnancy. My wife really enjoyed being pregnant. We were surprised. She had less cravings and things that people talked about. She pretty much just craved watermelon all the time.

(NOTE: Still expecting?  Get weekly updates on your twin pregnancy here.)

Joe: Well, that counts as a craving, right? Watermelon?

Matt: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. She ate more watermelon in those nine months than I think she had ever eaten in her life before that. We always joke that our first set, they got watermelon juice running through their veins.

Joe: So, you said the pregnancy is pretty smooth. How far did the twins make it before they were born?

Matt: They made it all the way. They made it 38 weeks. We had scheduled a C-section for 38 weeks. The doctor didn’t want her to go further than that, and she made it. So, we did the C-section. It turned out to be there were some complications at the end. The delivery went great. The kids were healthy. Everything was perfect. Violet was five pounds, 14 ounces, and McCoy was I think seven pounds, seven ounces. He was a big boy. So, everything was great, and then her uterus wouldn’t shrink back to size, so they couldn’t get the bleeding to stop. After several hours of trying different things and almost losing her, they ended up doing an emergency hysterectomy.

Joe: Wow. So, were you in the operating room while that was happening?

Matt: I was in the operating room for the delivery, and then they took us to kind of the post delivery room, the recovery room. She was brought in there for about 45 minutes. When they were concerned about the level of bleeding that was going on, then they took her back in. I was in the dark for most of that time. You know how doctors do. They try to downplay things to make it seem like, “We’re just going to check this. We just want to make sure,”, but I could tell it was a little more urgent than that. At one point, I went down, because by that point it had been probably eight hours since we had gotten there in the morning, and I hadn’t eaten anything.

Matt: So, the doctor had said, “Go down to the cafeteria. We’re just going to,”, whatever. We were down in the cafeteria, and they called a code on her room, which of course freaked me out. Then getting information was a little spotty for awhile. It was four or five hours of waiting. At one point, the chaplain came out to talk to me, which that never … You’re like, “Wait. What? What’s going on? Why are you talking to me?” Then they had ended up having to do the emergency hysterectomy, and then she was fine. I mean, not fine. She was going to be okay. I mean, man, talk about conflicting emotions that day. We’ve got the birth of your children and the most exciting, wonderful, overwhelming thing, and then this is happening in the other room, and the back and forth there. Of course, she wasn’t awake for any of this, so she didn’t know that that had happened until she woke up afterward. So, it was a crazy, crazy day, of course, but we were so obviously thankful that she was okay in the end and the babies were okay. Yeah. It was nuts.

Joe: That does sound like a crazy day. Were you with the babies during that time, when she having the emergency surgery?

(RELATED: The Twin Stroller Advisor helps you find the perfect double stroller for your family.)

Matt: The babies were taken up to the nursery on a different floor, and so I was going back and forth. It was a weird … I didn’t want to be far away from her, because I wanted to get … as information came out, I wanted to be there, get it, but then these two babies are up there. So, I would go up and take one of my sisters or somebody with me for a bit and then come back down and wait. It was a weird … It was very overwhelming to try and decide, okay, where should I be? What should I be …? Because there was really nothing I can do, you know, waiting, but at the same time, I didn’t want to miss anything. Yeah. I was sneaking out every once in a while and go see the kids.

Joe: How long did you all have to stay in the hospital until everybody could come home?

Matt: She gave birth on Thursday. We came home Monday. So, what, five days total, I think, four days, Four and a half days, something like that. Her recovery was shockingly fast. She was walking by, or at least a little bit, by Saturday. She was walking good distances by Sunday. When we went home, especially with the C-section and the hysterectomy, that’s a lot to recover from, and she was a champ, man. She did great.

Joe: Yeah. That’s a pretty quick turnaround time. So, that’s good.

Matt: It was definitely an eyeopening experience, when you realize what can go wrong and what doctor … Our doctor afterwards, like I said, they tried to downplay it during, but afterwards, every doctor that was involved, every nurse over the weekend came by to visit to make sure, because they were … Some of them said they lost sleep worrying about how she was. Our doctor kind of let us know, you know, that she had gone through I think they said three full transfusions during the surgery, and he said it probably took some years off of his life, because he’s never had that happen before.

Matt: So, it was definitely a hairy situation, but all in all we kind of felt really blessed and lucky afterwards to have two healthy kids and my wife be okay. Of course, she was pretty bummed, we both were, at the loss of her uterus and the ability for her to carry kids for us in the future. We didn’t know … I don’t know. We hadn’t really talked about it that much, but I think for her it was kind of the choice or the ability taken away from her to make that choice.

Joe: Yeah. I know that’s a very heavy burden to have. My mom had cancer when I was younger, and she had to have a hysterectomy. Seeing that loss for her was tough. So, how was the adjustment? You get back home. You just had this huge surprise of emergency surgery. Now, you’ve got twins. How was that adjustment back to life now with having two newborns in the house?

Matt: Because, again, when you’re 38 years old, you’ve got almost four decades of life, you’re worried at that point like, wow, this is really going to change everything about the way we live, which of course it does at any age, but we’re pretty settled into our freedom and the ability we had to just jump in the car or whatever and go places. I’m a pilot, so jump in the helicopter sometimes and just fly places on the weekend and, you know, that kind of freedom. So, I think we kind of went into it thinking, “All right. Let’s prepare ourselves for this is going to be the hardest thing we’ve ever done and really tough.” It was never nearly as difficult as what we had anticipated, and honestly, in a lot of ways, allowed us to just enjoy it so much.

Matt: I think we celebrated very intentionally. The night before she went in for the C-section, we went out to dinner and went for a very short walk, because that’s all she could handle at the time, being 38 weeks pregnant, but to kind of celebrate the closing of one chapter in our lives, the beginning of another. We still actually every year on that night, the night before their birthday, we go out to dinner to kind of mark that occasion and appreciate the life that we had and the life that we have now. So, it wasn’t too terribly shocking. Obviously, we had a lot to learn. I think that was the biggest thing is realizing, man, there’s so much to learn about diapers, and feeding schedules, and sleeping schedules, and all the things that you would with a single kid as well, of course, but there just was we didn’t realize how much we probably didn’t know, until we got into it.

Joe: Yeah. So, once you get into it and you’re learning the logistics of twin care, at what point are you like, okay, let’s consider other children?

Matt: Yeah. So, they were born September 21st, and I think by the end of October we were already having that conversation, mostly because part of it was still processing what had happened with her during the birth, with the hysterectomy and everything, and kind of going, okay, well, what does that mean? What’s next for us? We still had some embryos left from the IVF process, and so we hadn’t landed on exactly what we wanted to do. We felt very strongly that we wanted to give them a chance, and so for us, obviously, I think the only options were either you can adopt them out, which has felt just very weird, because they are full children of ours, and it just felt a little odd, or surrogacy, which is very, very expensive.

Matt: But fortunately, we have a great family and support, and so we started looking into the surrogacy option about a month probably after the first ones were born, just to kind of see what would this take? The other thing was us going, you know, do we wait a while, or do we just do this back to back, so that we can sort of knock it out? I was a big advocate for let’s do this back to back. I don’t like the idea of waiting three years and then starting over. At first, my wife was a little hesitant on that. Then one day she was like, “You’re right. I don’t want to wait,” so we started the process of surrogacy I think in January, so only about four months after the first set were born.

Joe: And how were you able to find a good match, a good surrogate?

Matt: We went through an agency. The fertility clinic that we had used for the IVF recommended an agency. We went and interviewed with them, and then they set us up on it’s a little bit like I would imagine like what internet dating is or something or dating through an app or something. I sort of missed all of that age wise. But, yeah. I mean, they gave us names and profiles, and we had to kind of go through and then request interviews with certain ones. Yeah. When we met, our surrogate was just a great match. She loved working with us, and we loved working with her. Yeah. You kind of say, “This is who we’re interested in,” and if they are interested in and they match you, then you’re good to go.

Matt: What the surrogate local?

Joe: I would say semi local. We’re in Orange County, in Newport, and she is in Riverside, so she’s about 40 minute drive for us, which isn’t too bad. It wasn’t the most convenient thing, but we really liked her, so for us it was worth it to have somebody that we felt really comfortable with. We talked to a number of people who had done surrogacy and sort of asked about their experience. There’s just such a wide variety of ways to go about it as far as involvement. For us, we felt like it was super important to be involved, especially because with her, she was 40 minutes away. You already have this thing that is so personal happening outside of your home, so I would always joke, “Yeah. We’ve got this girl out in Riverside’s grow in our babies for us.”

Joe: You have to be very intentional to set up things and do things to remind yourself or to prepare yourself for those babies coming. Like I said, the first time you have the natural things of she’s getting bigger, and cravings, and less room in the bed, and all that kind of stuff to remind you. With this, you don’t have any of that. In fact, we talked to one person who had done surrogacy, where he said after the transfer of the embryos and finding out that that was successful, he didn’t talk to a surrogate again until she gave birth. He just didn’t have any interest. I couldn’t imagine that.

Matt: Yeah. That’s hard to imagine that.

Joe: Right. Yeah. I’m like, no. So, we went to as many doctor’s appointments as we possibly could. We would talk to her on a regular basis. My wife and her would go have spa days. Then for us, even just personally, we would set up sort of … We looked ahead on the calendar, and we’re like, okay, by this date we want to have the first set moved out of the nursery and into their room, and then by this date we want to have new furniture put in for this, so we had sort of mile markers along the way that would prepare us for that date when they were supposed to come, so that we could somewhat be mentally prepared for it.

Matt: It sounds like good planning, I mean, at this point, your first set were toddlers, right? They’re extremely young still. SO, they had really no concept of what was about to happen.

Joe: No. No. They had no concept about what was going to happen. They were 17 months when the second set was born. They didn’t get it at all, but they were always … They love the kids. I mean, I think they just kind of, at first … We have other friends that have kids, and so they’d had other babies come over and things. They’re just used to them I think, but they adjusted very quickly.

Matt: Yeah. When our girls were born, we had two older boys. One of them was a toddler, about the same age as your first set, and the other one was just three at the time, so it was interesting to observe them. We tried to get them ready, talk about babies, but it’s very abstract until, you’re right, you bring up the babies, the twins, and it’s like, surprise.

Matt: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was tough, because they were just too young to do too much of that. They were just under that age where they could … They’d only been talking for a few months I think at that point, and so they didn’t quite get it. But, again, like I said, the best part about having twins is it’s built in best friends, I mean, at least at this age. I don’t know how long that lasts, and you probably can speak to them more, but for McCoy and violet, you know, they’re two now, and they’ll wake up at 6:00, 6:15 in the morning, and I sometimes don’t go in to get them up until 7:30, because they’re just in there talking to each other and tossing things back and forth between their cribs. They keep each other entertained. They’re each other’s best friends. So, when the new ones came along, it was like, oh, that’s cool. They’ve got their own thing, but now they love it. They just go over, and they’ll sit there and talk to them, and pretend to read to them, and things like that.

Joe: That’s fun. Yeah. It is interesting to watch the twins interactions with each other and with the siblings and how that evolves over time. Our twins, like yours, when they’re really young, were always very interactive with each other in their nursery, and they’re still friends. They fight a lot too. My girls are 11 now, so they’re in that tween age, where it’s high drama, let’s say. But it’s very similar to when they’re two or three, high drama, anyway.

Matt: Yeah. The drama level doesn’t seem to change. It’s the type of drama that just … it’s the things that the drama is about.

Joe: That’s right. How did you manage a time off of work, and work, and being at home with the kids, between you and your wife, with the two sets arriving?

Matt: We’re kind of in the ideal situation for this. I own my own companies, and so I’m my own boss. So, I gave myself some time off, and just the flexibility of my schedule, even to do something like this. You know, I ran home right now from … I was at one of my companies this morning, and I’m going the other one this afternoon, and I just popped home to record this in between. For me it was quite fortunate. My wife was working for our company, one of our companies before the first set were born, and so she ended up … We kind of didn’t know how much work it was going to be and of course realized pretty quickly, oh yeah, she’s not coming back to work, because it’s a full time deal, but especially now with two sets. We have some help, which is great.

Matt: But, yeah, fortunately I had the flexibility. My wife and I are such … Like I said, we’ve known each other a long time. We’ve worked together before, so kind of really are good team and have each other’s back. I don’t know many other wives that would put up with the amount of stuff that I do. We, in fact, started … One of my companies, Rogue Aviation, is a flight school, a helicopter flight school, and we started that the week after the first set were born. I ran it by her, and she was like, “No. You have to do this. It’s a great opportunity. You got to do it.” I was like, “Are you sure?”, because timing wise, but she’s always been super supportive. She’s awesome.

Joe: That’s awesome. Sounds like you have a great wife, a good support. You mentioned having some help around the house. What does that look like for you?

Matt: For us, as we were beginning the surrogacy journey, we’d done the transfer, and it was successful, so she was pregnant. We’re about two months into that, and we started realizing, okay, so it’s this much work now with two. How much more is it going to be with two more who are 17 months behind and being infants and all of that, and realized very quickly we’re going to need help. There’s just no way to do this on your own.

Matt: So, right around that time we were very fortunate, where a friend of ours who used to run a daycare, who had moved out of state, had just moved back into state, was considering starting up her daycare again, and we basically said to her, “Hey. We’re starting our own daycare here with four kids, if you want to come help out here.” So, it’s worked out/ It’s great, because her and her daughters, who are older, they’ve kind of been like family to us anyway. We would go on vacations with them. So, it’s sort of a natural fit, and she’s amazing. She’s here pretty much full time and helps out and obviously knows how to be with kids and do all that stuff, because she did it for years professionally. I mean, the timing and all that stuff just worked out so perfectly.

Joe: Yeah. That’s a great setup. Glad That worked out. So, now that you’re on your second set of twins, what are some things that you’ve done differently, maybe you learned the first time around, that you’ve changed with the second set?

Matt: That’s a good question. I think probably for me I think loosening up a little bit, being able to enjoy it a little bit more and not stress over … I think the first time we felt like there’s all these answers or all these formulas, not like drinking formula or eating formula, but like formulas for how to do things the right way to do things, and if you can figure out this, and this, and the exact sleep schedule, and that, and there was just so much sort of pressure we put on ourselves to figure all that stuff out and get it right. A lot of that stuff kind of works itself out, like, how do you know when it’s time for them to drop a nap, or how do you know when you know they need more? You know, you just kind of can figure that out.

Matt: But the first time, I think there was a lot of … I mean, we were constantly Googling things, and reading things online, and trying to ask good questions of anybody we knew, nurses or whatever, which is great, but I think the pressure on ourselves was more than probably was necessary.This time, it’s amazing how much you forget in 18 months. So, by the time the second set came along, we’re like, oh, we just did this, but then we’re like, wait, how did we do that, and how long did we do that for? We couldn’t really remember, but we realized, but we made it. We’re good, and so we’ve kind of relaxed a lot more this time and-

Joe: Well, you’re so sleep deprived in those early months anyway, that it’s almost impossible to remember anything just day to day, let alone months later.

Matt: Right. Your brain is sort of Swiss cheese, the things that just fall right out of it. But, yeah. You kind of just accept that, I think. For us it was just going, yeah, we’re going to make mistakes, and we’re going to forget things, and that’s okay. Everybody’s going to be fine.

Joe: Let’s talk transportation. How do you get your crew around now, as far as a vehicle or strollers? How’s that work for you?

Matt: Vehicle wise, we bought a Sprinter. The big Sprinter van was the only thing we could come up with, because my wife was realizing even with a big SUV, with with four at the time, none of whom would have been able to put themselves in their car seats yet and buckle themselves in, it’d be easier for her to have something where she could stand up and walk back there, instead of having to crawl over seats and all that. So, we found a used Sprinter van on Craigslist. That’s been a lifesaver. They’re little way less expensive than I thought they would be. That’s sort of the transportation there.

Matt: Then stroller wise, we have two. We have the ones from the first pregnancy, which was a double. It was the the City Select. Then we bought this one that is a quad stroller, but you can take off the front two. So, we’ll use that now for the older two, without the front attachment, if they’re just by themselves, and then we’ll use the, the city select for the younger ones. But if we’re taking all four at the same time, then we can do the quad attachment and push the quad stroller, but, man, that thing is heavy. The stroller itself’s not heavy, but when you get four kids in it, it’s heavy to push. I was actually Googling the other night is there a way to add like a little electric motor to the wheels on there, so that you could have some assists? There probably is, but I’m not technical enough to be able to do it.

Joe: Yeah. It’s like when you add all the gear and the weight of the kids, which keeps increasing every day, it gets a little overwhelming sometimes.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, it’s a nice stroller. It doesn’t nearly glide as nice as the City Select does. You put all that weight on there, and it’s already not quite as agile as the other one, and it can be … We have to take turns a little bit, because your wrists start hurting. It’s a lot of work. Flat ground is your friend on that one.

Joe: You’ve got two age groups, so you’ve probably got some staggered nap schedules and feeding schedules. Walk us through a typical day in the life of your family. What does it look like?

Matt: Kids all start waking up around 6:00, pretty much, I think. Like I said, McCoy and Violet, they’ll wake up somewhere between 6:00 and 7:00, and then they’ll stay in there until 7:30, 7:45, which is great, because that allows us to get up and go get the babies up, get them fed, get them changed, and spend a little time with them. Then I’ll usually go in. Stacy, my wife, she’ll take care of the younger ones, and I’ll go in and get the older ones up and get them changed, and dressed, and all that stuff. Then by the time the older set are having breakfast, which is probably like 8:15, 8:30, we’re getting the younger ones ready for their first nap, which is usually 8:30, 8:45, maybe 9:00. Of course, this will all change. Every time you get into a rhythm, just as soon as you get into that rhythm, it changes.

Joe: That’s right.

Matt: Just as soon as you get comfortable, just get ready to not be again. I think right now that first nap’s around almost 9:00. I remember what the first set it just kept getting later and later, until it sort of merged into the next one, so I’m sure that’s coming. The older set’s down to one nap a day, and it’s later in the afternoon, which is great, but it means less breaks. Yeah. Then while they’re napping, I’m going to usually have to work at that point. My wife and Molly, our nanny, will be playing with the kids in the backyard, or one of them will take them for a walk while the other one stays behind with the younger ones, who are sleeping.

Matt: Then they wake up, there’s usually maybe some sort of outing. They’ll go the park. They’ll go do something. McCoy and Violet go down for naps usually 12:30, after lunch. I think Poppy and Wels go down right around that same time too. There’s won’t last as long. McCoy and Violet will sleep until … if they sleep at all. Sometimes they just … I mean, I’m sure you know. You have certain days where they’ll be in there for three hours and not fall asleep at all. Most of the time they’ll sleep for two to three hours there, and Poppy and Wels in that time will have woken up and gone back down again.

Matt: Then we’re right around the time I’m getting home from work, depending on the day, some time between four and five. Everybody’s up, and we do dinner and then baths and all the things to get them ready for bed. Right now, we’ve been really fortunate. Our kids are pretty easy. They go down for bed, like we get Poppy and Wels down at 6:00, and McCoy and Violet are usually down by 6:30, 6:45, so that gives us a few hours before we go to bed to kind of eat, and do dishes, and laundry, and watch some TV, and relax.

Joe: How do you handle bath time? Do you do one at a time, or you do a couple in the bathtub at the same time? How’s that work?

Matt: With the older set, they’re together. In fact, recently, probably a couple of weeks ago, my wife was giving them a bath and accidentally, as the water was filling in, hit the lever, and it switched to shower. They just thought that was the greatest thing ever, so now they want showers, which is hilarious. She’ll do that kind of with them, and then the other two we do one at a time, because just the attention or whatever to make sure that nobody’s falling, or getting ignored, or anything like that. We’ll take one in at a time for them.

Joe: Awesome. Yeah. When our kids were really little, it was usually one at a time, and as they are able to sit up without any problems, we’d start having them all together. Occasionally, we’d have all four kids in the bathtub at the same time, but that was more like play time, not really get clean time.

Matt: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. When she does the shower thing with McCoy and Violet, they’ll do that to wash off and then they get … They’re in there for 10, 15 minutes just playing with toys in the tub. When the shower’s on, she’s letting the water catch and then let them kind of have a little play time in there. Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately, all of our kids seem to love baths,, and water and stuff, so we haven’t had any problems with that.

Joe: That’s true. At some point, we grow up and we lose that having fun in the bathtub and the shower. It’s all business now.

Matt: Yeah. It’s all business, another thing to get done on your way to whatever you got to do.

Joe: So, Matt, as we wrap up today, if listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about what you’re working on, what’s the best way to reach out?

Matt: I’m on Instagram at @MatthewBarnes. My main business is called Rogue Creative Development. It’s a full service creative storytelling marketing agency. We do everything from design, and social media, and websites, and branding, and all that kind of stuff, video, and photography. You can go to RogueCreatives.com or @RogueCreatives. Then Rogue Aviation, the flight school. If you want to learn to fly a helicopter, we’d love to do that. Then @RogueAviation or FlyRogue.com. Then I have another podcast as well, which is silly and ridiculous, but a friend of mine and I started it as sort of a joke, and it kind of took off, which is a, Bachelor related podcast where we make fun of the Bachelor. That’s called Bros Before Rose. We, my friend and I and our wives, we have a good time on there just joking around about about the most ridiculous show on television, but that’s pretty much it.

Joe: Well, I’ll link up to all that contact information in the show notes for the episode, so people can reach out and connect with you. Matt, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. We really appreciate it.

Matt: Absolutely. Thank you.

Joe: I hope you enjoyed the chat with Matt Barnes, fellow father of twins times two. If you’d like to connect with Matt, I’ll link up to all of his social media and websites he mentioned over TwinDadPodcast.com.

Again, today’s show is brought to you by my second book for dads of twins. It’s called Dad’s Guide To Raising Twins: How To Thrive As A Father Of Twins. You can learn more about that book and get one for yourself at RaisingTwinsBook.com. If you’d like to share your twin story on the podcast, please reach out to me. You can email Joe at DadsGuideToTwins.com or reach out to me on Instagram or Twitter, @TwinDadJoe. I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you next time.

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